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< General ~ Betting into a dry pot. *Gasp* |
| 00005159 |
 Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:28 am |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 1
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Betting into a dry pot.
Seems like many players in the AHL find it surprising and irritating when other players bet into a dry pot. I understand the goal of a tournament is to finish 1st by knocking everyone else out. I do not see betting into a dry pot as a bad play if the pot size is moderate and if you are vulnerable to a draw.
Obviously you should never bluff into a dry pot.
Agree or Disagree? |
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| ckrex |
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:52 am |
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AHL Admin
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Dallas, Tx.
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When I have complained about betting into a dry pot it is because the person betting does it simply to push me out and has nothing. If you are confident you can eliminate the all in then by all means bet and protect your hand. However if you bet into me with nothing just to push me out of the hand then that is bad play in my opinion.
my two cents,
adam |
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| Shamrock |
| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:24 am |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 162
Location: Plano
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Personally I don't find it surprising at all anymore. It happens more often than not. What I do find irritating is the person defending the play. Quite simply put it's a bad play. I got my first lesson in dry side pot betting online about 4 years ago, when I was in an online tournament that TJ Cloutier was also in. I was watching his table as I played mine. He was in a hand with a player who bet into a dry side pot with top pair. TJ folded to his bet, and the player who was all in went on to win the hand. I proceeded to watch as TJ Cloutier typed for about 5 minutes on the abject stupidity of what the player had done. He pretty much tore him a new one...verbally.
Let's take the situation posed by the original poster. There are 3 players in the hand. One of them is all in. Flop is a draw heavy board and the player with an overpair bets at it. The other player folds his flush draw. All in player hits the flush on the turn, or river. The player who bet into the dry side pot won nothing. Nada. Zero. The player who was all in tripled up. The player who folded to the flop bet, would have hit a higher flush and knocked out the player who was all in. How did this help the player who bet, the drawing player out of the pot?
Put this in the context of a real poker tournament. Everyone is already in the money. Each person knocked out means everyone else moves up the money list and earns $1,000 more. How terrible a play is that bet into a dry sidepot now???
It has nothing to do with "etiquette", as I've heard many people explain. Strategically, it's a bad play. In tournament poker there is a distinct bias against confrontation. Your tournament equity goes up every time another player is eliminated. It's why it is often best to watch two other players battle over a pot. Why would you want to make a play that doesn't increase your equity???
The way I figure it if it's good enough for TJ Cloutier who has over $9 million in tournament winnings including over $4.3 million at the WSOP, then it's probably good enough for me. |
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| Fallen1 |
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:50 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
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I agree on both points. HOWEVER, I, personally, disagree with betting into a "dry pot" without a straight or better. As that ensures I have a strong hand that can probably knock out the "All-in" player.
If the all-in can beat a straight or better, it probably didn't matter anyway.
Just my $1.87 (Including inflation and taxes) |
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| sgx2000 |
| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:48 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 61
Location: dallas, tx
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i don't see any point in getting upset at someone doing this in an AHL tourney... of course it does get more frustrating the closer you are to a final table.
however... i have gotten upset at people doing this at one or small multi-table sit n gos for some real sizable money. it also bothers me when i see short stacks go all-in for next to nothing and the entire table folding forcing me to call the player with a 7 3 off just because the rest of the table doesn't seem to understand the benefit of knocking someone out while their short stacked. |
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| Shamrock |
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:29 pm |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 162
Location: Plano
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There aren't many things that get me "upset" at free poker.
One of them is when a table breaks...and either a) the TD doesn't take the time to make sure people are seated where they should be. Or b) people try to improve their position by moving to the best seat available at the table they are going to.
Come on people. If you were going to be BB next, don't knock people out of the way to take the seat behind the deal. Play the game with honor and integrity. Shooting this angle only makes you look bad. |
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| m1rs |
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:17 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
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Shamrock wrote: There aren't many things that get me "upset" at free poker.
One of them is when a table breaks...and either a) the TD doesn't take the time to make sure people are seated where they should be.
I assure you that the TD TRIES to place people in the closest position possible. However, TDs are human and if a mistake is made, please point it out so that it may be corrected.
It's especially difficult when there's just been a multiple all-in hand at the table and the seats that appear to be in one position suddenly aren't (the next two big blinds going out, or the deal not moving forward next hand due to blinds being knocked out). The TDs TRY to be fair. When a mistake is made and you don't point it out, how do you expect the TD to correct it? |
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| Shamrock |
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:00 pm |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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Location: Plano
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I think you're right m1rs...I think the onus should be on the players to help the TD out. He's got enough going on, and trying to place a number of people at different tables in the seat they should be in. Sure enough they will complain if they are placed into the BB or under the gun, when they would have been on the button or cutoff. Lets face it...everyone knows where they are at a table, and where they should end up at the next table. Take the responsibility for making sure the TD does the best they can to put you in that spot.
So if you would be the BB next hand, and your table breaks....let the TD know you are the neBt BB. |
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"Lord, let me break even today. I really need the money" |
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| ckrex |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:02 am |
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AHL Admin
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Dallas, Tx.
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YES!!! Please let us know when we miss something. With some crowds now topping 150+ players we have to the TD will not catch everything and I know it is a big help to them when players let them know when things go wrong. If for any reason any member tries to help the host and does not receive assistance please contact me anytime.
Adam
adam@ahlpoker.com
Great Post by the way!!!!  |
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| m1rs |
| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:27 am |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
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sgx2000 wrote: it also bothers me when i see short stacks go all-in for next to nothing and the entire table folding forcing me to call the player with a 7 3 off just because the rest of the table doesn't seem to understand the benefit of knocking someone out while their short stacked.
This one has been bugging me for a few days now. I simply disagree with your position on this.
If you call, even a small raise with utter crap, you're donating to the short stack in hopes of sucking out. Most of the time, you're simply helping the short stack stay in longer.
While the range of hands you can call a short stack with is wider, 73o isn't even near the range required. |
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| Shamrock |
| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:32 am |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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Location: Plano
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I don't beleive we can make a judgement on whether or not 73o is good enough to call with, without putting actual numbers out there.
If I'm the BB for 2,000. And someone goes all in for 3,000. It should be an insta call with any 2 cards. I'm getting 6:1 on my money (6,000 in the pot. My Bb of 2,000. The SB of 1,000. and the all-in of 3,000). Based on how short his stack is, How wide he should be pushing, how little I must call, and the fact that I'm certainly getting the right price to make the call (against his very wide range), I go ahead and make the correct play and call.
What I don't understand is why this would upset anyone in that position. You either have the odds to make the call with rags, or you don't. Poker is about making correct decisions. Evaluate it. Make the right play based on the maths. ANd then go on to the next hand.
It's even more amazing to me when the exact same situation comes up and the short stack pushes all in with his last 3,000, only to get called by the player with 73o in the big blind. He confidently turns over his AA, only to see a flop of 7 7 3. Then he makes a huge case of "how could you call with that crap". The answer is..."the maths worked out for any two cards against your likely pushing range". The bigger question is "why did you get blinded off so much that you had absolutely no fold equity, and made my call the right play?"
That is the true question. |
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"Lord, let me break even today. I really need the money" |
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| sgx2000 |
| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:32 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 61
Location: dallas, tx
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i'll have to go re-read how i worded all that but i was mostly speaking about 1-3 table sit n gos... not really with AHL tourneys
it's just a general thing where players are mostly just concerned with their own cards and their own chip stacks without giving any thought to the chip stacks of the other players
but then again everyone has their own reasons for playing poker in the AHL tourneys so to each their own. i have no gripes about anything, i have a good time. |
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| 00009715 |
| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:19 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
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You want to know what I find amusing? Well, here it is anyway! When people try to compare free poker with playing at Winstar or Vegas.
Taking out an extra person in a freeroll does not put anyone higher in the money! This is a winner take all game people, adjust.
If I have a good hand, and someone with considerably fewer chips than me goes all in, does that downgrade the value of my hand?? No, it doesn't. If I can get someone else to contribute more money to a side pot, then I will bet. The object here is to accumulate as many chips as possible, so as to increase your odds at the final table. If I can add a few thousand more chips by suckering someone else into a side bet, then it's worth it. Even if my hand doesn't beat the all in, I've still increased my chip stack. (Obviously, this all depends on the amount of chips at play and the hands held, flop, turn, river, etc.)
Long story short, stop confusing freerolls with casino tournaments, they are two different animals. |
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