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< General ~ Halloween Special! Phantom Rulebook in effect? |
| 00007012 |
 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:30 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
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BOO!
Very frightening. Are y'all scared yet.
At a recent AHL poker outing we discovered that there is a phantom rulebook with phantom rules that are currently in effect and in use. And in REAL 3D
Phantom Rule #1. Players must complete the raise after a short all-in bet. And the amount that a player may raise is undetermined, at least.
Example: Blinds were 500/1000. Under-the-gun went all-in 1500, the next player went 2000 "I must complete the raise,he said".
I fold and everyone folds all the way to the button.
The player on the button said "I raise, but I'm not sure what a minimum raise would be? Is it 2500? 3000? or 3500?"
We asked a couple of different guys(one is the guy who completed the raise) and a gal who are apparently in possession of the Phantom Rulebook, and 2 out of three decide that the min-raise will be 3500, one said it should be 2500.
Does anyone know where we can find a copy of the Holloween Phantom Rulebook?
I cannot find such rules on the website. The rules on the website are the same rules we have used for the past 2 years. |
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| Shamrock |
| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:25 pm |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 162
Location: Plano
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This situation...or similar has been addressed on the forum a number of times. The AHL Rules are no different than the TDA Rules utilized at most casino tournaments including the WSOP.
In the example posted the UTG players all in of 1500 does not represent a raise. In No Limit Holdem it doesn't matter if the best is 25%, 50% or 95% more than the initial bet (the BB of 1000). There is no such thing as "completing the raise". That players options were to fold, call 1500, or raise. A min raise would be to make it 2,500. His completing the raise is not an option.
There is never a time in no limit poker that you have to do anything more than calling the previous bet. Think about it...it makes no sense. Why should anyone have to complete a raise? In limit poker, and only in limit poker if a player is all in for less than a full raise, does anyone have the OPTION to complete the bet. That is an option, because raising is not an option. |
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"Lord, let me break even today. I really need the money" |
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| 00007012 |
| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:47 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
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I think that you are correct. Only I feel like the raise could be a bet of 2000 and not 2500. I'm not exactly sure what to think at this point.
BUT ,this situation was brought to the attention of the AHL TD and varified that AHL rules do require "completing the raise".
The TD said: "Yes in AHL poker we are required by rule to complete the raise".
I said: " Isn't that a rule used in limit-poker? We are playing no-limit."
His reply: "That is the AHL rule. Complete the raise(or reraise) and play on".
Yes It has been discussed before and Adam stated that he would clarify this item and a few others in the AHL Rulebook. He has not yet done such a thing. |
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| ckrex |
| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:29 pm |
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AHL Admin
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Dallas, Tx.
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Are you sure about that Shamrock? My understanding is that if 50% of the minimum raise is met by the all in then the bet must be completed.
I absolutley trust your knowledge of the game Shamrock and if I am mistaken I would like to correct this with my staff immediatley to avoid any improper calls.
Thank you,
Adam |
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Adam Thompson
Founder/AHL Poker Inc.
AHLPoker.com
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| Shamrock |
| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:11 pm |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 162
Location: Plano
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Adam,
I'm positive. Of course there's nothing that says AHL Rules must conform to either TDA rules or Roberts Rules of Poker.
The best explanation all around that I've seen is out on the TDA Discussion Forum. The situation presented for discussion was almost exactly what was presented here. I'll copy and paste the situation, as well as the response,
" Our league owner has requested that I investigate whether one of our house rules should be changed. I'd appreciate any guidance or rule references that you might offer.
Situation: NL Hold'em...A player's (let's say UTG) first action in this hand is to bet all-in but less than a full raise. The current house rule allows the players following to just call the all-in if they want or if they have not yet had the opportunity to act in this hand, they may make a legitimate raise or go all-in themselves. The league owner returned from playing in a tournament where he was told that he could not just call the all-in in this type of situation, but instead he had to "complete the raise" if he wanted to stay in the hand. I'm not clear on whether this was a house rule or some other sort of rule.
and the resulting response.
In a round of betting the BB (The forced BET) amount is in force irrelevant of how much a player is all-in for, to clarify this I will now give some examples (all are NLHE):
400/800 - Pre-flop BB is all-in for 700, players must call at least 800 or raise to 1,600 to enter the hand
200/400 UTG Pre-flop opens for 350 All-in, other players must still call the BB of 400 or raise a minimum of 400
300/600 Pre-flop a player opens for an all-in of 800, the bet faced now is 800, and players may either call it or raise to a minimum of 1,400 total
300/600 Post-Flop 4 players, 1 checks; 2 bets 1,000; 3 shoves for 1,800 total; 4 folds; 1 calls 1,800 (all options available); 2 can either complete 800 more or fold - he cannot raise as he has already acted and player 3's all-in is not a complete bet, but if for example 4 raised to 2,800 total (min) that would re-open betting to 2.
400/800 post-flop, 3 players; 1 checks; 2 checks; 3 shoves for 700, this can only be called by 1 & 2 or fold as it is not a complete bet.
400/800 post-flop First to act shoves for 600, following players may either call 600 or raise to 1,400 total (min)
From what you have described you are correct with what you already have, players in your situation are permitted to call the all-in wager, raise or fold, there is no requirement to complete to a full-raise even though it is not a full raise itself. Everything Nick has already stated I agree fully with - I am also not aware of any rule out there that would not let the player not call the all-in wager in your situation
[i]
The relevant rule from Roberts Rules of Poker is as follows:
NO-LIMIT RULES
1. The number of raises in any betting round is unlimited.
2. The minimum bet size is the amount of the minimum bring-in, unless the player is going all-in. The minimum bring-in is the size of the big blind unless the structure of the game is preset by the house to some other amount (such as double the big blind). The minimum bet remains the same amount on all betting rounds. If the big blind does not have sufficient chips to post the required amount, a player who enters the pot on the initial betting round is still required to enter for at least the minimum bet (unless going all-in for a lesser sum) and a preflop raiser must at least double the size of the big blind. At all other times, when someone goes all-in for less than the minimum bet, a player has the option of just calling the all-in amount. If a player goes all-in for an amount that is less than the minimum bet, a player who wishes to raise must raise at least the amount of the minimum bet. For example, if the minimum bet is $100, and a player goes all-in on the flop for $20, a player may fold, call $20, or raise to at least a total of $120
The concept of completing a bet does not exist in No Limit games (other than the SB completing the BB in an unraised hand PF). |
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"Lord, let me break even today. I really need the money" |
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| 00007012 |
| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:23 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
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| Thanks Shamrock. Great info! Now I totally understand the betting amount options. |
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| 9611 |
| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:11 pm |
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Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 5
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00007012 wrote: Thanks Shamrock. Great info! Now I totally understand the betting amount options.
Just keep in mind that until Adam makes the change with the Tournament Directors, the old rule of having to complete the bet stays in effect. |
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| 00007012 |
| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:53 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
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I am confident that this will be done soon. Adam wants these players to learn how to do things the right way, so that when someone represents the AHL at a major tournament they won't embarrass him and the AHL.
Or. You could just print a copy of the rules as-is from the website, and carry those with you to the events that you play, then when questions arise during a game you can insist on abiding by the "official AHL Rules".
FYI. "The exposed hand is dead" rule: needs to be changed(removed).
Nobody will enforce the dang thing. The other night one of the off-duty hosts was playing at our table and he was constantly showing his hand to the guy behind or the guy next to him, etc. We couldnt get his hand killed. Also he spent a lot of time and trouble sifting through the muck pile during hands as they were being played.
Adam also had previously stated that he would do the rewrite on the AHL Rulebook and supply each host with a copy to carry with them to every event. |
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| 9611 |
| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:33 pm |
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Joined: 03 Oct 2009
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00007012 wrote: I
Or. You could just print a copy of the rules as-is from the website, and carry those with you to the events that you play, then when questions arise during a game you can insist on abiding by the "official AHL Rules".
FYI. "The exposed hand is dead" rule: needs to be changed(removed).
Nobody will enforce the dang thing. The other night one of the off-duty hosts was playing at our table and he was constantly showing his hand to the guy behind or the guy next to him, etc. We couldnt get his hand killed. Also he spent a lot of time and trouble sifting through the muck pile during hands as they were being played.
Adam also had previously stated that he would do the rewrite on the AHL Rulebook and supply each host with a copy to carry with them to every event.
LOL!!! You apparently do not play at my tournaments. Yes all Tournament Directors carry a copy of the rules. Mine are in a black binder labeled AHL and are placed right next to the sign in sheet.
The rules have been cleaned up a bit. I spoke with Adam about the completing the bet rule. Once he has confirmed he will adjust accordingly.
Feel free to come out to any of my tournaments (hooley's, tierneys, etc.). The rules were put in place for a reason and i try to enforce them to the best of my ability.
Thanks
Dale |
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| ckrex |
| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:09 am |
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AHL Admin
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Dallas, Tx.
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Ok, after some research I have found that Shamrock is in fact correct. The rule of completing the bet deals only with limit poker. I am inserting the a sample from Shamrocks original post to inform all player of what the official ruling by AHL will be.
The minimum bet size is the amount of the minimum bring-in, unless the player is going all-in. The minimum bring-in is the size of the big blind unless the structure of the game is preset by the house to some other amount (such as double the big blind). The minimum bet remains the same amount on all betting rounds. If the big blind does not have sufficient chips to post the required amount, a player who enters the pot on the initial betting round is still required to enter for at least the minimum bet (unless going all-in for a lesser sum) and a preflop raiser must at least double the size of the big blind. At all other times, when someone goes all-in for less than the minimum bet, a player has the option of just calling the all-in amount. If a player goes all-in for an amount that is less than the minimum bet, a player who wishes to raise must raise at least the amount of the minimum bet. For example, if the minimum bet is $100, and a player goes all-in on the flop for $20, a player may fold, call $20, or raise to at least a total of $120
The concept of completing a bet does not exist in No Limit games (other than the SB completing the BB in an unraised hand PF).
So, to be clear if a player moves all in for less than the amount required any players who calls does not have to complete the bet.
I will be informing all host on this matter and also adding it to the rules within the next few days.
Thank you all for your patience and assistance in this matter.
Good Luck,
AHL Poker |
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Adam Thompson
Founder/AHL Poker Inc.
AHLPoker.com
Create your own AHL Signature |
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| Shamrock |
| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:12 pm |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 162
Location: Plano
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This is another example of what is right about AHL. Whether you play AHL for the social aspects (which are many) or to learn Texas Hold'em, you should play by the rules that casinos throughout the world recognize. That way when you play in a real money tournament, you will have learned to play correctly.
As usual I applaud Adam for his responsiveness, and for providing a place to learn the basics of the game, as well as a place to hang out with friends. |
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"Lord, let me break even today. I really need the money" |
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